>> john: what is fair? that is our show tonight.

>> john: many people believe one of fairest parts of america is that older people don't have to worry much about running out of money, thanks to social security and medicare. the programs seemed fair. everybody pays in when we are young and then we are older we are taken care of. but that is lie. had there is no trust fund. the programs are trillions of dollars in the hole. to keep their medicare promise babyboomers politicians would have to double or triple taxes on kids. i tried to explain that to some. >> excuse me. i have to take some of these. no, i'm the old person. i need this. >> yes. >> no, i won't give it back. you have to understand you have to take care of me, right? you may not have much of a future because you have to pay for geezers like me. you will have to work really

hard. they might as well a ball and chain. >> one fair way to prevent bankruptcy is to allow young people to opt out to get a private investment account instead. george w. bush credit for acknowledging it and pushing for private accounts but one of his press secretaries dana perino knows he didn't success with that. >> president bush wanted to tackle big issues. it didn't get bigger for social security for him. he designed a program, three principles, making sure that people were at or near retirement wouldn't have benefits changed. also there would be a chance for younger people to have a small amount if they wanted put into a private account that also he would do this without raising the payroll tax, it had been raised from 2-12%. he went to the republicans after the inauguration and readdressed

and said this is what i want to do but they said, it might cost us seats. but not tackling the issue will cost us seats. we'll be behind you, so far behind you you won't be able to see us. >> john: he went on to a.m. every state talking about this. >> we did communication, cities in 60 days type of program and we had him out there doing multiple things. the poll testing of the messaging of privatizing social security, going to take away your social security made everybody so nervous there was really no support. that said, what i like about it is president bush was finally the first one to take on the third rail. he just didn't touch it but he hugged it. but it has given room for other politicians to talk about it as representative paul ryan has

done. >> john: it is going broke. it is unsustainable. you can raise the retirement age it's much easier to fix medicare >> so interesting people in washington decided to take the duck every year. it was the democrats would say most of the negatives and most i think untrue things about president bush's program, but i think at the end of the day, when this is all solved, because it will have to be solved, that the program that is put in place will look like the reform that president bush originally proposed. >> john: i like the reference in the feed in 2006 state of the union speech. >> congress did not act last year on my proposal to save social security. >> john: listen to that. it's like they are gloating and is pretty irresponsible. president went on to say this.

>> rising cost of entitlements is a problem that is not going away. [ applause ] >> john: there was more applause after that because entitlements is big problem. the author of the book "red and blue and broke all over," called it a criminal ponzi scheme. the author is charles goyet. madoff got locked up for 50 years? >> we should look the people of government up for 50 years. when my kids get e-mails about the nigerian oil minister, they know it's a fraud. but they know social security everybody social security is ponzi scheme but they are stuck in life. think if a private company came up with a deal like this. president of the company, all right we've got solve new policies tomorrow to pay you what you do when you cash if

today. they would lock them up in jail. >> john: even mitt romney rick perry said it's a ponzi scheme, the term ponzi is over the top, frightening to people. he is accurate because he said there was trust fund but there wasn't, they spent the money right away and counting on new money from new contributors to pay for people our age. >> there is no trust, there is no fund, there is no security. even though the really bad thing this is really what is destructive. it has changed the propensity of the american people to save for themselves. when you look at china where they have serious demographic problem, aging population, they save like crazy. the result of that, by the way, is they form capital and the country is growing more and more prosperous by the day. here in america we don't save. the government is going to take care of it. we are creating a

multigenerational calamity. >> john: what will they do about it? the head of the ways and means community 25 years seniors would have helped co-pay. seniors chased him and surrounded his car. >> after a little maneuvering he was able finally able to drive away from the protestors. he'll have a harder time getting away from this come election time. >> john: and seniors vote so president bush didn't get it through. we have paul ryan trying but is the public ready? >> john, when the boomers were born, there were 17 payees into social security. 17 people for each recipient. now, we're about three to one. soon it will be two to one. we've loaded kids up with a debt they will be burdened by the rest of their lives for present

consumption. what kind of country does something like that. >> it would develop take a president because even if you are the chairman of the house budget committee you can't do enough. the policy needs to be driven by a president whether republican or democrat and they are going to have show leadership and spend political capital to get it done. >> john: a poll found 92% oppose cutting medicare. 73% of republicans. nobody wants to cut anything. we can fix social security by adjusting the inflation index. for social security this may be true but medicare, we keep living longer and we want all this cool medicine they are developing. >> that is why i don't have any sympathy for president bush. look, social security is a $17.5 trillion unfunded liability for this country. he just finished creating a

$15.5 trillion with medicare part "d". >> john: are you responsible for that? did you talk him into that? >> no, medicare prescription part "d" is controversial now. but at the time the debate centered around if you are going to diagnosis a problem but not have a plan to buy drugs to fix the diagnosis, that is what it came down. it was competitive marketplace mechanisms. it has come under budget every year. there is a way you can add competition and market forces into health care that can work. >> john: it came under budget. >> you have 310 million americans that have different objectives but come up with a program like president bush's, you must do this you are

regimented to do this. how does he know? the people want to put their kids through college. their retirement is better spent through medical school. best thing can happen is for people to understand the state is author of this and don't buy into any more of their schemes. >> the problem is the program exists. it's not going away and it's required to you pay those payroll taxes. it might be a calamity but somebody has to step up and do something because it can be fixed. >> john: we'll keep asking, is what is fair? is it fair that some of us want teachers judged? ♪ ♪ >> john: michelle wee will be

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>> john: public education -- that just seems fair, all kids guaranteed free education and it's the american melting pot. everyone gets the same chance, a level playing field. but its lie. the playing field is not level. it's not a melting pot and most places, many places it's not even an education. michelle wi knows about that, she was school chancellor in washington, d.c. where you tried to reform the system and made everybody mad and lost the election and got the? >> what you are saying is the truth though. this is not fair for kids in this country. if you are a child who is born into poverty into america, chances you will ever able to escape poverty is slim to none. this country was founded on the belief that anybody -- that's

right. if you have good and determination, you can live the american dream but that is not the reality to american kids. >> john: because they get a lousy education? >> absolutely. >> john: so i'm told we need to spend more. >> data shows is that not the case. if you take washington, d.c., we were spending more money than any other urban jurisdiction. >> john: almost $20,000 per student. >> places like newark, $22,000 per student, the results are absolutely abysmal. it's not about the fact that there is a direct correlation between more money and better results. over the last two to three decades in this country we have more than doubled expenditures. >> and the results at best have remained stagnant and many cases gotten worse. >> john: where does the money go? >> when i was a superintendent in d.c., i inherited a central office that had more than 1,000

employees. by the time i left office we had less than 500 and everyone said it was operating much more efficiently than they had ever seen it before. a lot of goes to a bloated bureaucracy. >> john: newark $22,000 per student, half million dollars per classroom. i think you great teachers you could hire for that. but look at the private schools. private schools in the cities where they charge a lot, average private school charges less than what the public schools spend per student, 12,000 versus 8,000 and not all but on average do a better job. catholic schools spend even less and do a better job. >> the bottom line if you look at private schools and sometimes public charter schools, they don't have to spend the money on the central office and

administration. that is where a lot of the dollars go. in d.c. we spend a billion dollars in education in the city. with a percentage went into the classroom it was only $403 million of that. so you are talking about the majority of the dollars not even going to teachers and kids in the classroom where it's going to have the most impact. >> john: teachers' union would say, it's about the kids their parents chose to send them to those schools. we are stuck with the parents that don't care and that is why we are struggling even though we get more money? >> at the end of the day, there are parents in every community who care about their kids. we are in an unfortunate situation if you are a parent and low income community and you don't want to send them to a chronically failing school, you don't have a lot of optionss. in some jurisdictions you don't have any options but continue to send them to go to a school

where you know they won't get a good education. >> john: kids could choose but why do we call them public schools. let's call them government schools. they are not very public. you can't walk into a public school. i can walk into a private superintendent. it's like everything else the government does, a clumsy, badly managed monopoly that doesn't serve it's customers well. it's called government schools. government schools versus private schools. [ laughter ] >> and the fact is public attends private schools. i think we have to move away from the idea what is a public school, what a private school, a charter school and focus on effective schools. >> john: let's return to fairness. private schools that is for the white people who have more money. melting pot that is government

education, that puts everybody together. it's not even true. research by jay green at the university of arkansas found public schools were more likely to be entirely white or entirely minority. they are more segregated. second study, who sat with whom in the cafeteria, at private schools different races were more likely s to sit together. >> our public school system is segregated school system. >> john: you are assigned by where you live. >> and neighborhoods are segregated, as well. we don't have to your point the american melting pot a lot of people want to believe we do. >> john: you go into washington, you try to shake things up. you find a loophole you try to fire teachers. one of the teachers union bosses talked to me. i asked him about you and he said you just made people mad.

>> upset, families, students and teachers. a lot of people got fired. she said they deserved to be fired. the system needs changed. many thought she needed to be fired. >> john: you did quit before you were fired when the mayor lost. you said we are going to make it better for the kids. you thought people would like that bucks the voters didn't? >> people did like n it in many ways, we reverse add 41-year decline in the in the district. for the first time in four decades in my last year, we actually grew the public confidence and trust in what we were doing because people saw the shakeup. that what was necessary to improve outcomes. unfortunately a lot of people didn't like the fact that we were impacting the security of the contracts and jobs in the district. >> john: people didn't like it are the organized unions who

have money to give the campaign? >> in fact the american federation of teachers put a million dollars in the boss's competitor because they knew if we were successful in washington, d.c., that other cities would take notice and what to do some of the same things. >> john: you have a charity called students first which is raising money to fight back? >> that's right. if you look in this country over the last two to three decades, education agenda has been driven by special interest groups, you have teachers union and companies and the problem there is no organized national interest group advocating on behalf of kids. >> john: now there is. thank you michelle r he. >> and is it fair that this guy makes more money than this guy? actually, i think it is fair.

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i want to invest in clean energy, solar, wind. [ cheers and applause ] solar and wind and biodiesel. >> john: that sounds smart and fair in giving our rather than giving money to big oil companies but they got subsidies for years. so to create a pollution free world it's intuitive that solar and wind and biodiesel should get subsidies now. but it's not fair, it's stupid says the spokesman for one of those big bad is a makes money from the oil. she is nancy and works for coke -- koch industries.

why is it stupid to give subsidies to all this clean energy? >> i happen to believe and we happen to believe that the government providing subsidies is a big mistake. that allows it and inserting the government into the market where they are choosing winners and losers. >> john: so you are saying that your company benefits from these. >> our company would support eliminating all subsidies and lowering the corporate tax rate accordingly. >> john: they have received subsidies now, give these guys a break? >> wind subsidies have received it since 1992. solar energy you go back to carter. i don't know how long is long enough but 1992 and it produced less than 2% of our energy. >> john: they just need a little more.

>> teenagers will be paying for them until they are 60. >> john: isn't there a fairness element companies get so much? >> i don't think you layer bad government on it. i think we should clean up the entire tax code. >> john: just to be clear, my understanding is per kilowatt hour energy produced the oil subsidy is 1% to a hundred that solar and wind get? >> well, the amount of subsidies that have gone in politically correct energy. >> john: they are pulling back. >> john: they felt ripped off? >> in spain, it cost them 2.2 jobs that of the jobs created and it was $700,000 per job created. those jobs had one in ten hung around. >> john: we're in agreement we should eliminate all subsidies. but then the politicians wouldn't have people to do favors for to get contributions.

that reminds me, it's called serious materials. it makes windows and got unusual attention from important people. >> these workers will have a new mission, producing some of the most energy efficient windows in the world. >> you are not just churning out windows, you are making some of the most energy efficient windows in the world. >> john: how many little companies not only get attention with the president and vice president coming to the plant. it turned out one of executives was married to a high official of the energy department who was giving out billions of dollars in subsidies. that is not capitalism. that is crap talism. [ laughter ] >> frankly it's the kiss of death if the president and vice president comes to visit your company. but it is true. >> john: it's not just solyndra.

>> there are many other ones. beacon energy, other places where they received a significant amount of taxpayer largesse and had ties to the administration and have given big bonuses to their executives before they went bankrupt, it's a scary story line because it's so much rewarding your friends and punishing your enemies. >> john: what is fair about that? let me ask you, speaking of fairness. your bosses are being viciously attacked by the president himself in some cases. i'm told they secretly funding the climate denial machine. people resent them. they have number 12 in the forbes richest list. so they must be bad guys? >> that is really remarkable to me. i have had the honor of working with them, charles and david

koch and success story. they have made a phenomenal business and employ 50,000 people in 46 states. building stock that people need and they means they are under attack. >> john: another one, is subsidy is for the electric vehicle, chevy volt, $190 million in subsidies. >> the numbers i've seen on electric vehicles are nothing short of amazing. you are talking about, if it worked on average, $250,000 per car. >> john: $250,000 per car. >> for $40,000 car. my kids are buying $2500 for a pickup truck. >> john: but they will come down and air will be clean?

>> they have been working on this for quite some time. president obama says he will buy a volt when he is no longer president which i hope will be next year. >> john: thank you, nancy. what is fair about the d.c. area having ten of the top 15 richest counties in america? is washington fair? we go to that next. wake up! that's good morning, veggie style. hmmm. for half the calories plus veggie nutrition. could've had a v8. feeding your lawn need not be so difficult neighbors. get a load of this bad boy. whoa. this snap spreader system from scot snap-crackin' simple -- jut snap, lock, and go. [ scott ] feed your lawn. feed it! it'll cause cavities, bad breath.

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everything should be fair. >> restore fairness. >> basic fairness for all americans. >> john: the president talks a lot about fairness and media and political class use fairness to justify everything from higher taxes to subsidies. they say things would be less fair. politicians so they can guarantee fairness but steve moore of the "wall street journal" says no they can't. >> the government hasn't made things fair. a lot of the government policies make the society less fair. you have to sit back and think about our society. is it fair that someone like peyton manning is going to sign a $20 million contract, whereas others won't make that money in their lifetime? is it fair politicians make

three times the median income? incomes have to be determined by mark place. that is what the president is talking about. he thinks the people in washington should decide what your after tax income is and mine and tiger woods. >> john: he is not saying that peyton manning can't make a bunch of money. >> here is my problem. in our american society, richest 1%, tiger woods, peyton manning of the world, they pay 40% of their income tax. look, 40%, top 1% pay more than bottom 95%. we have a tax system that is highly dependent on very top people at the top. one of the things i think is unfair about our tax system if you look at the bottom 50% all americans beneath the median today they are only paying 2.5%

of the income tax. you know what is than if you take all taxes combined, the bottom 50% pay a tiny share, less than 10% but the top 50% are paying 90%. it's a highly progressive tax system. the fundamental idea that barack obama is trying to sell the rich aren't paying enough. what i am trying to say to you they pay an awful lot already. >> john: your opponents are saying, the rich are filthy rich. they are squandering money on mansions they don't need and bottom 20% don't have any money. >> but where do the jobs come from. when you talk about the top 1%, they are not football players and not golfers. most of them, vast majority of them are small business owners. they are people in most cases that started with nothing.

built up a business with their sweat equity and took risks. i'm thinking about somebody like my father. he became rich. he shouldn't be ashamed of that. why should the government take half his money. he is the person who created jobs for those people you are talking about. government doesn't create jobs for poor people. it's entrepreneurs and business owners who do. >> john: and even the football player may indirectly do. >> there is a phrase, i never got hired by a poor person. >> john: you wrote an op-ed to make other ways of thinking about it. is it fair for the three counties with the highest income happen to be located in washington, d.c. area. >> that is one of my favorites. that has been case for 25 years, as long as i've lived in washington and it's increasing. gap between washington and rest of america is increasing, it's

because government is getting bigger. government is supposed to be reducing these income gaps but essentially the way it works we collect $4 trillion from the rest of the country and we keep 10% and send $3.6 trillion back. i could never understand why people in detroit or sacramento or portland, maine would want to send the money to washington and have a carrying charge and it back to them. >> john: you also write, is it fair for americans to hire people, save money and die, pay the estate tax of 35% going up to 55% next year than rather than passing that money on? >> i would say, yeah, they are rich and it hardly serves the children to get a gift of all this money. that is good example. let's say you are similar

circumstances. we make the same amount of money over the years we are working. we enter in retirement. you go out and gamble and you drink and spend all your money down to zero. you don't have to pay an inheritance tax. i, invested and i'm frugal so i can pass it on to my children i'm leaving them a legacy, why should i have to pay 50% tax on what i saved whereas you spent it all. i acted virtuous, not you. incentive of the tax system by having a 50% tax rate at death is die broke. you should die broke because that way the taxman can take eth from you. >> it fair that tim geithner, tom daschle, charlie rangel and

other people that preach tax fairness under paid their taxes? >> it's a hypocrisy element to this. everybody says you should pay more taxes, head of the ways and means committee, these people aren't paying their fair share of taxes. i think they were cheating on their taxes. how dare they say i should pay more? >> john: all good new ways of thinking about fairness and we're going to return to some of these ideas at the end of the show. before you go, i want to thank you on appearing on all these shows where i don't have to where you explain markets to the left-u go on bill maher and colbert and michael moore's movie. >> sometimes i wonder if i'm achieving anything but i do it to be fair. >> john: we're all grateful you do that. thank you. we touched on taxes this

segment. when we return more from the person that taught steve moore a lot about taxes and how they distort the economy that lead to more of these and lead to affluent people like mike huckabee and me getting free golf carts. my name is robin.

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that can help lower cholesterol? honey nut cheerios. we need to change our tax code so people like me and members of congress pay our fair share of taxes. >> john: and they applaud. they stand up to applaud. democrats anyway. they want to pay more in taxes but help those that have less. intuitively it seems fair but it's stupid says art laffer. why is it stupid. >> you know, basically rewarding people for not working and

punishing people for not working doesn't make a lot of sense to me. you will get a lot of people not working which is exactly what is happening. poor doesn't need handouts. only way prosperous is with good high paying jobs and that is what the policies don't do. if you raise tax rates on the rich the economy performs less well and not better. that is problem with obama's statement and warren buffett who everyone is clapping. they have a misguided perception. >> john: one of the things they say is that, okay, you make an argument that handouts make people not work. but we're going to invest the money in good things and that is how we created the internet. we invested in the internet and look at all the wealth that was described from that. >> there are some government expenditures that are really good.

i don't want to knock those, but when the government picks private investments, their record is pretty poor. you see what is happening with solyndra and amount of money lost. government is not good and picking good investments. >> john: but they keep doing it. let's look a provisions that make life more fair by encouraging certain behaviors like the tax deduction for raising livestock that is supposed to keep us in food. and one result i was surprised to learn, there are 150,000 alpacas in america. >> you are not going to go after alcalpacas. i am one of the largest breeders -- no, it's silly. you get a lobbyist and they do a rider on the bill and called

earmarks and the bill passes and the nonsense gets all over the place. i hear that some people get golf carts for free because of tax credits. it's outrageous. >> john: that one expired. charlie rangle rang el. we want people to use electric vehicles. they cost $6,000. tax credit is free. i got one and mike huckabee got one. he had a friend that got seven but these are the disforces they bring in. i'm glad you and mike had some advantage. >> i wish i would have known about it. i would have gotten seven. look at this other one, is it fair that the u.s. has the highest corporate tax rate in the industrialized world. is it fair that obama sends his

kids to private elite schools and the rest of us have to send our kids to public schools? i never did with my kids, a lot of people don't get the choices they want. what is unfair about choice. being forced to join unions, what is fair about that, being forced to contribute to political causes you don't like? these are all things that make no sense to me. >> john: me neither but the other side says, what is fair that you are good-looking. what is fair that you had two parents that steered you to a good education. we need to level the playing field. >> have you ever read harrison bergeron. smart people get put things. good-looking people have to wear masks that are ugly and good athletes need tendons cut -- it's amazing wonderful story by

vonnegut. it's where we are headed. that is whole reason for plastic surgery, now covered by obamacare. hello? >> john: thank you. my take, lots of people say it's unfair the rich have so much money but is income the way to measure fairness? what about good looks or social skills? how do we judge what is fair? i habe a cohd. i toog nyguil bud i'm stild stubbed up. [ male announcer ] truth is, nyquil doesn't un-stuff your nose. really? [ male announcer ] alka-seltzer plus liquid gels fights your worst cold symptoms, plus it relieves your stuffy nose. [ deep breath ] thank you! that's the cold truth! i want to fix up old houses.

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>> john: what is fair? advocates for big government sure believe that asking to fair leads to higher taxes and more government control. >> you need a tax system that is fair. >> there are millions that

aren't paying their fair share. >> john: taking from people that have a lot and giving to those that make less. or giving it to those things they like, like solyndra. or giving it to old people. older people vote. but even with those scams, the idea that government can make life more fair appeals to people. at least it does until they really think about it. so the president says fairness requires higher taxes. is it fair that the rich e-10% of americans already pay more than of the nation's income tax than the richest 10% of every industrialized nation? is it fair that art laffer said that corporations pay the highest corporate taxes in the world. beyond taxes, school touchers not fair because they will take money from government schools. is it fair that the president

send his daughters to elite private schools and denying other kids the opportunity? no, i would say. clearly the term fair can be spun lots of ways. politicians for example like to compare people's incomes, but do equal incomes make life fair. who is happier, this good-looking surfer dude. he hangs out at the beach. he is popular with the ladies versus this computer geek. this is bill gates when he was younger. he is much richer, he spent hours of his life hunched over a computer screen. steve moore asked other interesting questions, is it fair that in 27 states, workers are forced to join unions just to keep their jobs. is it fair that in 2008, 88% of political contributions from supposedly impartial producers went to democrats? is it fair that responsible

people who pay morlts each month have their tax dollars taken from them to subsidize people who act recklessly? is i it fair this country's debt more than doubled over the eight years? is it fair that we and our kids never voted for that spending under bush and obama will have to pay off all that debt? no. that is not fair. it seems reasonable to want government to make life more fair, but when government takes your money and freedom to try to do that, government makes life worse. it makes everyone poor. biggest threat is not just that government makes people poor. it makes us less. as government gets bigger, individuals get smaller. what is really fair is to have limited government. that means the same rules for everyone, no special favors, no handouts. that is our show. thanks for watching. [ male announcer ] to the 5:00 a.m. scholar.

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